Yeah anyone with football acumen can see the Bucs basically got 4 guys on defense - Vea, Kancey, David and Winfield. Compare this defense talent to that in 2020, 2021 and we quickly realize the issue l
due to dead cap, they had to prioritize keeping the offense together and it paid off
Don’t get me wrong, if the Bucs lose on Sunday in a win and in game against the saints at home where we are 13 point favorites - Bowles job is in jeopardy.
This, exactly.
Winfield, injured most of the year and playing poorly when on the field
David - huge legacy and great player, but this year has been tough because he's all alone and not the same athlete at 35. The Cowboys game as an obvious example
Kancey -- missed games early and then has REALLy come on. If he is healthy the whole season maybe that helps.
Vea - maybe having his best year.
The descent from the Super bowl has our edge rush going from JPP and Shaq to Anthony Nelson and JTS and our LBs going from top form David and top form White (near SB MVP) to old David and Britt etc etc etc
@m_j - good stuff. My dad had tickets on the 6th row at the 10 yard line. I can still remember the smell of the pipe smoke in the stadium. I was pretty young g and I cried at the end of most games. For some reason I always thought we would pull it out. But what great memories.
So, let’s say he did have a “full deck” to play with.
Does that change him being one of, if not the, worst head coaches in the NFL when it comes to clock management?
Does that change his atrocious situational awareness?
Does that change his laughable passive approaches to pressure and game defining situations?
Does it change his overall stubbornness regarding his approach to critical game situations?
IMO…it doesn’t. He is who he is.
A good DC. A mediocre-at-best HC.
Well put. I like DC Bowles, not a fan of HC/DC Bowles.
Yep, as we’ve discussed over several topics - many of those reasons are why I have come to believe it’s time for a change.…While some of that is due to a lack of defensive talent at key positions, and therefore he’s not playing with a full deck - it may be time for a change.
Just wanted to focus on this part, since we’ve already debated the “change” aspect of this topic; and it’s apples and oranges vs. past scenarios.
Yes, Todd has had to deal with numerous injuries to multiple players. But, so has Liam. And, two of those were caused by the ineptitude of his HC.
One guy has excelled despite the multiple injuries, while the other not so much.
But, my main point has always been Bowles as the HC, not the DC.
So, let’s say he did have a “full deck” to play with.
Does that change him being one of, if not the, worst head coaches in the NFL when it comes to clock management?
Does that change his atrocious situational awareness?
Does that change his laughable passive approaches to pressure and game defining situations?
Does it change his overall stubbornness regarding his approach to critical game situations?
IMO…it doesn’t. He is who he is.
A good DC. A mediocre-at-best HC.
If we make the move to Coen, I’m great with it. However, for me, it’s still moving to a HC with zero experience at that level, at a pretty critical point in the franchise future…but hey, we’ll at least always have the ability to outscore the other team …and the team’s success has only seen marginal improvement under the current HC.
Yep, as we’ve discussed over several topics - many of those reasons are why I have come to believe it’s time for a change.…While some of that is due to a lack of defensive talent at key positions, and therefore he’s not playing with a full deck - it may be time for a change.
Just wanted to focus on this part, since we’ve already debated the “change” aspect of this topic; and it’s apples and oranges vs. past scenarios.
Yes, Todd has had to deal with numerous injuries to multiple players. But, so has Liam. And, two of those were caused by the ineptitude of his HC.
One guy has excelled despite the multiple injuries, while the other not so much.
But, my main point has always been Bowles as the HC, not the DC.
So, let’s say he did have a “full deck” to play with.
Does that change him being one of, if not the, worst head coaches in the NFL when it comes to clock management?
Does that change his atrocious situational awareness?
Does that change his laughable passive approaches to pressure and game defining situations?
Does it change his overall stubbornness regarding his approach to critical game situations?
IMO…it doesn’t. He is who he is.
A good DC. A mediocre-at-best HC.
If we make the move to Coen, I’m great with it. However, for me, it’s still moving to a HC with zero experience at that level, at a pretty critical point in the franchise future…but hey, we’ll at least always have the ability to outscore the other team …and the team’s success has only seen marginal improvement under the current HC.
Respect all aspects of this take.
I've said before it comes down to wins and losses and the buck stops at the head coach. It's the NFL and sometimes the ball bounces the wrong way and you will lose a game here or there, but some games are more important than others. Some games you have to win, and it really boils down to the two losses to the Falcons.
The HC of 11-2 Ohio State is lucky to hang onto his job just because of one thing - He can't beat Michigan. The Falcons are our "Michigan". Even if we had split the series that would have been fine. But losing to the division rival Falcons twice should have meant we'd be out of the playoffs and it should have cost Bowles his job. If it wasn't for the Falcons swooning down the stretch, we'd be on the outside looking in. Bowles can thank the Falcons, who beat him twice, for helping him keep his job - if he keeps it. I just don't know that there are any better options than keeping the status quo at this point.
and the team’s success has only seen marginal improvement under the current HC
Like your take.
I totally get and agree with the hypothetical "either/or" on Bowles and Coen. I am not sure how the Bucs navigate that with a 10 win Bowles and a playoff birth, but thats why they make the BIG MONEY
Either way though, the Bucs are actually in a good place in terms of the options going forward BECAUSE
1. If Coen only wants to be a HC they have the best seat to keep him (excluding external, non-football things they cannot control)
2. If Coen is willing to stay on (like Ben Johnson) as OC* then they should have an immediate Super Bowl contender, aside from things like injuries
I say Super Bowl contender because the Bowles SCORING defense of 2024 is not far off from the Bowles scoring defense of 2023. The difference is only a 4 ppg. If the 2024 Bucs had the Bowles scoring defense of 2023, they would have likely won 11- 13 games, just going off the scoring average (imperfect, admittedly). That is a contender.
And, iF the Bucs were planning all along to UPGRADE the defensive talent for 2025 then that gap should close, perhaps significantly.
It hard to imagine a 10 win playoff team going through a complete strip down and rebuild, so its most likely one of the TWO scenarios, but even the worst scenario to most here - Bucs lose Coen and keep Bowles - is not the end of the world. The Bucs went to the playoffs in 2023 with an OFFENSE that was just below average scoring.
Its everything behind that where it falls apart though because the injuries are substantial and the are thin to begin with
In the game they just played they gave up 14 points to the Panthers including one terrible long pass.
In that play it is Jordan Whithead - a "value" FA who has played like do shit - gets beat because he is a SLOW playing the deep safety role HE IS NOT MEANT TO PLAY THAT ROLE (watch him on the TD).
Mr. Whitehead speaks
"“Definitely felt a little slow in the beginning [of the game], legs felt like I was running in mud a little bit,” Whitehead said. “And, you know, first time really using my left side, trying to get off blocks and things like that. It’s hard to simulate that in practice.”
How does that go?
iNjUriEs DoNt MaTtEr!
If Bowles remains as HC/DC and the Bucs lose Coen, it is damn near the end of the world as far as I'm concerned.
There are two scenarios that would satisfy me:
1) For 2025, retain Bowles as HC, force him to hire a DC, and make Coen Asst HC/OC, head coach in waiting for 2026. Coen has input on the new DC.
2) For 2025, promote Bowles to Defensive Consultant, give him an office next to Arians, make Coen HC/OC, hire a DC.
While Coen has no HC experience, there is plenty of experience on staff to mentor him and help him succeed. And Coen has first-hand experience watching McVay as HC/OC, he can model his approach after McVay's.
