"My argument is that from 2014-2019 the Bucs averaged 6 wins per season under 3 different head coaches, 2 of which had success on other teams. Now we're 7-9 and everyone is blaming the coach. His 2014-2019 body of work was horrendous. He even admits it. We won because of Brady. Not because of Licht. Not because of Arians. Because of Brady. When people push back on it I ask what our record would have been with Bridgewater and nobody wants to answer because they know we would have sucked.
Now we're back to bad drafts and non impact free agent signings and back to losing. Just like under Lovie. Just like under Koetter. Just like 2019 with Arians. It doesn't matter who the coach is if he's going to put this level of talent on the field. Alot of the players are bad. Really bad."
Think you just killed your own argument with this statement. If it was all Brady, and not Arians or Licht, then why was Brady's only losing season during Bowles his first year at the helm? I realize this is an indictment to Bowles as it should be, but that completely disproves " that it was Brady" not the combo of talent( that Licht assembled) coupled with, Arians coaching, and Brady and company's play that brought the Superbowl home to Tampa. If that was the case then there should have been at two additional trophies that should be in the case at OBP then...but it further goes to show that coaching matters.
There should be another Lombardi from 2021. Lost Godwin and Wirfs. Should have just paid AB his bonus and shut him down until January.
2022. Brady wasn't all-in. OL was shit.
."My argument is that from 2014-2019 the Bucs averaged 6 wins per season under 3 different head coaches, 2 of which had success on other teams. Now we're 7-9 and everyone is blaming the coach. His 2014-2019 body of work was horrendous. He even admits it. We won because of Brady. Not because of Licht. Not because of Arians. Because of Brady. When people push back on it I ask what our record would have been with Bridgewater and nobody wants to answer because they know we would have sucked.
Now we're back to bad drafts and non impact free agent signings and back to losing. Just like under Lovie. Just like under Koetter. Just like 2019 with Arians. It doesn't matter who the coach is if he's going to put this level of talent on the field. Alot of the players are bad. Really bad."
Think you just killed your own argument with this statement. If it was all Brady, and not Arians or Licht, then why was Brady's only losing season during Bowles his first year at the helm? I realize this is an indictment to Bowles as it should be, but that completely disproves " that it was Brady" not the combo of talent( that Licht assembled) coupled with, Arians coaching, and Brady and company's play that brought the Superbowl home to Tampa. If that was the case then there should have been at two additional trophies that should be in the case at OBP then...but it further goes to show that coaching matters.
There should be another Lombardi from 2021. Lost Godwin and Wirfs. Should have just paid AB his bonus and shut him down until January.
2022. Brady wasn't all-in. OL was shit.
Brady was definitely distracted that year. I know he was good friends with Robert Kraft, but I thought it was BS that Kraft scheduled his wedding during the season and that Brady decided attending was more important than practicing with his teammates. OL was down a little, but still very serviceable and still better than most OL as a whole that we have had prior. AB was a Meshawn situation all over (different circumstances, same result and similar kind of headcase so not sure he would have been okay sitting out that long) I think Gronk being gone was the biggest detriment to the team, but again Brady being Brady doesn't trump talent around him or coaching. It all matters and it all counts toward the final outcome.
."My argument is that from 2014-2019 the Bucs averaged 6 wins per season under 3 different head coaches, 2 of which had success on other teams. Now we're 7-9 and everyone is blaming the coach. His 2014-2019 body of work was horrendous. He even admits it. We won because of Brady. Not because of Licht. Not because of Arians. Because of Brady. When people push back on it I ask what our record would have been with Bridgewater and nobody wants to answer because they know we would have sucked.
Now we're back to bad drafts and non impact free agent signings and back to losing. Just like under Lovie. Just like under Koetter. Just like 2019 with Arians. It doesn't matter who the coach is if he's going to put this level of talent on the field. Alot of the players are bad. Really bad."
Think you just killed your own argument with this statement. If it was all Brady, and not Arians or Licht, then why was Brady's only losing season during Bowles his first year at the helm? I realize this is an indictment to Bowles as it should be, but that completely disproves " that it was Brady" not the combo of talent( that Licht assembled) coupled with, Arians coaching, and Brady and company's play that brought the Superbowl home to Tampa. If that was the case then there should have been at two additional trophies that should be in the case at OBP then...but it further goes to show that coaching matters.
There should be another Lombardi from 2021. Lost Godwin and Wirfs. Should have just paid AB his bonus and shut him down until January.
2022. Brady wasn't all-in. OL was shit.
Brady was definitely distracted that year. I know he was good friends with Robert Kraft, but I thought it was BS that Kraft scheduled his wedding during the season and that Brady decided attending was more important than practicing with his teammates. OL was down a little, but still very serviceable and still better than most OL as a whole that we have had prior. AB was a Meshawn situation all over (different circumstances, same result and similar kind of headcase so not sure he would have been okay sitting out that long) I think Gronk being gone was the biggest detriment to the team, but again Brady being Brady doesn't trump talent around him or coaching. It all matters and it all counts toward the final outcome.
Brady was great but any team is behind the 8 ball when all plans are changed on March 30th lol. In 2020 we got the very best of Brady. In 2022 we got the heavily distracted not so Brady version of Brady and that was not enough to overcome the other deficiencies in the team.
."My argument is that from 2014-2019 the Bucs averaged 6 wins per season under 3 different head coaches, 2 of which had success on other teams. Now we're 7-9 and everyone is blaming the coach. His 2014-2019 body of work was horrendous. He even admits it. We won because of Brady. Not because of Licht. Not because of Arians. Because of Brady. When people push back on it I ask what our record would have been with Bridgewater and nobody wants to answer because they know we would have sucked.
Now we're back to bad drafts and non impact free agent signings and back to losing. Just like under Lovie. Just like under Koetter. Just like 2019 with Arians. It doesn't matter who the coach is if he's going to put this level of talent on the field. Alot of the players are bad. Really bad."
Think you just killed your own argument with this statement. If it was all Brady, and not Arians or Licht, then why was Brady's only losing season during Bowles his first year at the helm? I realize this is an indictment to Bowles as it should be, but that completely disproves " that it was Brady" not the combo of talent( that Licht assembled) coupled with, Arians coaching, and Brady and company's play that brought the Superbowl home to Tampa. If that was the case then there should have been at two additional trophies that should be in the case at OBP then...but it further goes to show that coaching matters.
There should be another Lombardi from 2021. Lost Godwin and Wirfs. Should have just paid AB his bonus and shut him down until January.
2022. Brady wasn't all-in. OL was shit.
Brady was definitely distracted that year. I know he was good friends with Robert Kraft, but I thought it was BS that Kraft scheduled his wedding during the season and that Brady decided attending was more important than practicing with his teammates. OL was down a little, but still very serviceable and still better than most OL as a whole that we have had prior. AB was a Meshawn situation all over (different circumstances, same result and similar kind of headcase so not sure he would have been okay sitting out that long) I think Gronk being gone was the biggest detriment to the team, but again Brady being Brady doesn't trump talent around him or coaching. It all matters and it all counts toward the final outcome.
Brady was great but any team is behind the 8 ball when all plans are changed on March 30th lol. In 2020 we got the very best of Brady. In 2022 we got the heavily distracted not so Brady version of Brady and that was not enough to overcome the other deficiencies in the team.
we also got the true playcalling of Leftwich once Arians was gone, and that wasn’t helping matters either
I ask what our record would have been with Bridgewater and nobody wants to answer because they know we would have sucked.
or, they know . . Licht got Brady and company
If your point is that the pre-Brady roster was not that good . . Brady even disagrees with that.
Licht certainly plays a part in the current state of the team but in no way is it "Licht, not Bowles."
The pre-Brady roster was so good the season was over in October with BA. So good. Such a good roster.
Jameis Winston had 36 turnovers in one season
I ask what our record would have been with Bridgewater and nobody wants to answer because they know we would have sucked.
or, they know . . Licht got Brady and company
If your point is that the pre-Brady roster was not that good . . Brady even disagrees with that.
Licht certainly plays a part in the current state of the team but in no way is it "Licht, not Bowles."
The pre-Brady roster was so good EXCEPT FOR WINSTON the season was over in October with BA.
So, the head coach Licht coaxed out of retirement to things around, starting with evaluating Winston, successfully turned things around, but to you that is a knock on Licht because even though they won a Super Bowl they didnt win with Winston?
It sort of feels like you are falling into holes you dug to fill other holes in your argument
Brady turned things around. Brady is gone and now we're reverting back to pre-Brady. Licht is the constant.
I think you're missing the point here in binary thinking.
Licht is def on the hot seat for his shortcomings... Most if not all of the board thinks this. YOU think he should be fired by the same thinking as Bowles. That's the only difference.
YOU are defending Bowles and making excuses for him via Licht. And tbf, it's not like Licht gave him the eagles roster or tried to improve midseason.
So there's plenty to be critical of Licht... HOWEVER, Licht has a resume that far exceeds what Bowles has done. Licht is on the hot seat but he shouldn't be fired like Bowles who has lost the locker room.
Licht is navigating the debt of the super bowl run... And his latest draft was pretty dang good with Egbuka and 2 good young corners. The draft SPEAKS to thinking 2-3 seasons ahead but not THIS SEASON. That frustrates me but I get the reasoning.
Bowles has enough talent to not go 1-7 down the stretch to a breeze of a schedule, lose the locker room, finger point, and constantly do head scratching moves (all out blitz for Tet TD, punting 4th and 1 at midfield, etc).
Bowles body of work is cemented. He's a 500 coach. He's a coach you bridge the down years to keep your head above water until you're ready to actually compete for a chip.
Bowles is toast... Licht COULD be right behind him (for extending Bowles and letting Coen walk) but in reality Licht deserves 1-2 more years.
TL;DR - Bowles has shown his ceiling. Licht's ceiling is much higher and he has proven success in building a winning team, attracting FA talent, and making good draft picks. But he's right behind Bowles if he isn't careful.
Licht is def on the hot seat for his shortcomings... Most if not all of the board thinks this
Correct.
Bowles body of work is cemented. He's a 500 coach. He's a coach you bridge the down years to keep your head above water until you're ready to actually compete for a chip.
correct
And i agree that JC offers a black/white falsity, binary thinking as you call it.
Licht has tons of GOODWILL in the organization. He delivered a Super Bowl and now navigated them through dead money hell by wining multiple division titles. That is coming to an end now though and the GOODWILL starts to fade.
I ask what our record would have been with Bridgewater and nobody wants to answer because they know we would have sucked.
or, they know . . Licht got Brady and company
If your point is that the pre-Brady roster was not that good . . Brady even disagrees with that.
Licht certainly plays a part in the current state of the team but in no way is it "Licht, not Bowles."
The pre-Brady roster was so good the season was over in October with BA. So good. Such a good roster.
Jameis Winston had 36 turnovers in one season
Licht took him #1. Turned down a deal from Chip Kelly that would have changed both franchises.
I ask what our record would have been with Bridgewater and nobody wants to answer because they know we would have sucked.
or, they know . . Licht got Brady and company
If your point is that the pre-Brady roster was not that good . . Brady even disagrees with that.
Licht certainly plays a part in the current state of the team but in no way is it "Licht, not Bowles."
The pre-Brady roster was so good EXCEPT FOR WINSTON the season was over in October with BA.
So, the head coach Licht coaxed out of retirement to things around, starting with evaluating Winston, successfully turned things around, but to you that is a knock on Licht because even though they won a Super Bowl they didnt win with Winston?
It sort of feels like you are falling into holes you dug to fill other holes in your argument
Brady turned things around. Brady is gone and now we're reverting back to pre-Brady. Licht is the constant.
I think you're missing the point here in binary thinking.
Licht is def on the hot seat for his shortcomings... Most if not all of the board thinks this. YOU think he should be fired by the same thinking as Bowles. That's the only difference.
YOU are defending Bowles and making excuses for him via Licht. And tbf, it's not like Licht gave him the eagles roster or tried to improve midseason.
So there's plenty to be critical of Licht... HOWEVER, Licht has a resume that far exceeds what Bowles has done. Licht is on the hot seat but he shouldn't be fired like Bowles who has lost the locker room.
Licht is navigating the debt of the super bowl run... And his latest draft was pretty dang good with Egbuka and 2 good young corners. The draft SPEAKS to thinking 2-3 seasons ahead but not THIS SEASON. That frustrates me but I get the reasoning.
Bowles has enough talent to not go 1-7 down the stretch to a breeze of a schedule, lose the locker room, finger point, and constantly do head scratching moves (all out blitz for Tet TD, punting 4th and 1 at midfield, etc).
Bowles body of work is cemented. He's a 500 coach. He's a coach you bridge the down years to keep your head above water until you're ready to actually compete for a chip.
Bowles is toast... Licht COULD be right behind him (for extending Bowles and letting Coen walk) but in reality Licht deserves 1-2 more years.
TL;DR - Bowles has shown his ceiling. Licht's ceiling is much higher and he has proven success in building a winning team, attracting FA talent, and making good draft picks. But he's right behind Bowles if he isn't careful.
You’re making it about Bowles. I’m actually neutral on Bowles. My point is we would be in this same situation no matter who the coach is. The offensive line is bad. The QB is average. There’s no pass rushers.
The offensive line is bad.
Last season one of the better lines. This season, mostly injured . . . but that is Licht?
The QB is average.
Last season better than average. This season injured, behind heavily injured line, new OC . . . but that is Licht?
But what is NOT on Licht is drafting Wirfs, Goedke, Mauch . .etc . . and taking a $4 million flyer on Mayfield?
JC, as usual you've gone full circular firing squad.
The offensive line is bad.
Last season one of the better lines. This season, mostly injured . . . but that is Licht?
The QB is average.
Last season better than average. This season injured, behind heavily injured line, new OC . . . but that is Licht?
But what is NOT on Licht is drafting Wirfs, Goedke, Mauch . .etc . . and taking a $4 million flyer on Mayfield?
JC, as usual you've gone full circular firing squad.
This. Health and coaching has doomed this team, not talent.
The offensive line is bad.
Last season one of the better lines. This season, mostly injured . . . but that is Licht?
The QB is average.
Last season better than average. This season injured, behind heavily injured line, new OC . . . but that is Licht?
But what is NOT on Licht is drafting Wirfs, Goedke, Mauch . .etc . . and taking a $4 million flyer on Mayfield?
JC, as usual you've gone full circular firing squad.
He went cheap on veteran swing tackle. Heck was pathetic. Chukwuma has no business playing LT in an NFL game. These players shouldn’t be on the roster.
There’s a lot invested in Wirfs and Goedeke and Wirfs is injury prone. Why go cheap on swing tackle?
Elijah Klein was drafted to be the backup guard. He can’t play. He shouldn’t be in the league. Jordan and Feeney have no business playing either. These backups are not backups, they don’t belong in the league.
He had the chance to walk away from Bredeson and upgrade. He signed him to a dumb deal and now we’re stuck with him in 2026.
Graham Barton is a bust.
