Grizz's play calling made Canales look like McVay.
Granted, it's tough to call anything when the interior line is immediately beat every play but the offense was so vanilla it didn't really matter.
The fucking 6 yard out route to the long side of the field with 10-15 air yards was driving me insane
The OC gave the QB quite a few plays to make, but he didn't.
Wut
Sure, I can put it another way: the QB missed receivers that were schemed open. The QB made bad reads independent of the OC. The QB made bad throws independent of the OC. The QB’s drop in the play isn’t because of the OC.
Baker played at that level the first 9 games because no one had anything on Grizzard and how he would call games. Once the gameplan was out there
It doesn’t take NFL DC’s nine games to catch on to an offense as bad as you are purporting the Bucs offensive scheme to be. Those offenses don’t hang 30+ points on the Seahawks and 49ers defensive coaching staff and players.
You act like Grizzard was Byron Leftwich. If he was, he wouldn’t have a job right now - like Leftwich didn’t have a job for years.
I think the 2023 Canales version is probably the "real" Baker Mayfield. I think Coen was that good of an OC and I suspect he will probably be that good of a Head Coach. He sees the game very well and runs the offense accordingly. I was never big on Canales, but seeing how bad Grizzard was helped me realize with Canales, it could have been way worse and he was at least effective enough in my book to let Baker play to his strengths. Coen is the exception. I think Baker with Canales is the real Baker.The thing that throws me most about the overall Mayfield discussion is that:
1. He has 4000 yards and 28 TDs and 10 INTs with Canales as the OC. This is with the leagues WORST rushing attack and its still better offensive scoring than Canales 24 (top 10 rushing attack) and 25 (19th rushing attack) offenses. So some of that success is on Mayfield's play.
2. Mayfield goes UP with Coen to 4500 yards 41 and 16. He has a healthy line and a top 3 or 4 rushing attack. So some of Mayfield's success is on Coen and good health.
3. Mayfield's lowest production is 2025 with a ROOKIE OC who was fired and a big step back in rushing attack. So some of the struggles have to be on the OC, right? Injury
So, if you are trying to figure out what you have with Mayfield, how in the world do you conclude that he is the last 11 games of 2025?
It has to be somewhere between 2023 Canales and 2024 Coen, not the last 11 games with Grizz when the team is collapsing.
One easy way to highlight that point is just to reverse the cherry picking (or recency bias, whatever you want to call it) and say that based on the first 8 games Mayfield has the Bucs at 6-2 and he is on his way to 4000 yards 28ish TDs and a handful of INTs . . with soon-to-be-fired Grizz as the OC.
That should mean that:
Grizz is more the "flop" (he was fired and not rehired as OC)
Canales the "floor" (he was hired as a HC and play caller); and,
Coen may be the "best performance" (we will see with Robinson).
A 2026 NFL QB who performs up slightly from the "floor" and down slightly from the "best performance" throws for 4000ish yard, 30 TDs and 12-13 INTs is top QB. Seattle wins a SB with Darnold at 4000, 25 TDs and 14 INTs
Awesome thanks for answering.
I would think Baker is sort of "Canales +"
I throw on the "+" because any OC now would see what he does best, which in my view is manage a run-strong offense that spreads the passing game around quickly and with many passes being an extension of the run game. Canales 2023 had a putrid run game. It was just that Cananles was committed to it as part of running a balanced offense
Not sure what "Canales" or Canales +" translates into for QB contract value but a "canales/Canales+" QB won a Super Bowl (admittedly with a defense I dont not expect the Bucs to produce)
Baker played at that level the first 9 games because no one had anything on Grizzard and how he would call games. Once the gameplan was out there and the adjustments made, Baker wasn't a good enough QB to adjust on his own. A good OC would change things up (see Coen and to some degree Canales). They would shift how they called games. Grizzard was incapable of doing that and Baker Mayfield is NOT Tom Brady so his play diminished significantly PLUS the injuries not only to himself but others definitely had an impact on the offense.
this seems obvious
use Egbuka as an example. Egbuka lights it up early (no film) but the defenses adjust to take him away, double teams, man press, out in the X role, and his production drops off
Thee "genius" of Coen was he was always adapting, even in game. Of course defense are going to defend a mostly static Grizz offense better late
That truly was the genius of Liam Coen. Canales never showed the ability (to me) at that level but as Fire mentioned, Grizzard's playcalling made Canales look like McVay.Baker played at that level the first 9 games because no one had anything on Grizzard and how he would call games. Once the gameplan was out there and the adjustments made, Baker wasn't a good enough QB to adjust on his own. A good OC would change things up (see Coen and to some degree Canales). They would shift how they called games. Grizzard was incapable of doing that and Baker Mayfield is NOT Tom Brady so his play diminished significantly PLUS the injuries not only to himself but others definitely had an impact on the offense.
this seems obvious
use Egbuka as an example. Egbuka lights it up early (no film) but the defenses adjust to take him away, double teams, man press, out in the X role, and his production drops off
Thee "genius" of Coen was he was always adapting, even in game. Of course defense are going to defend a mostly static Grizz offense better late
With Robinson, I am hopefully that we land somewhere between Canales and Coen. There is no way I expect the offense to be as explosive as Coen's did but as long as we get something close to the Canales version, I think that bodes well for our Bucs.......that is until Bowles and his brilliance in defensive schemes rack up the losses. The underlying problem with all of this discussion is if you had to point to one thing that cost the team last year over anything else, it was the inability of the defense to prevent offenses from scoring. Tampa averaged somewhere in the neighborhood of 20+ PPG but that defense (and ST) stunk to high heaven.I think the 2023 Canales version is probably the "real" Baker Mayfield. I think Coen was that good of an OC and I suspect he will probably be that good of a Head Coach. He sees the game very well and runs the offense accordingly. I was never big on Canales, but seeing how bad Grizzard was helped me realize with Canales, it could have been way worse and he was at least effective enough in my book to let Baker play to his strengths. Coen is the exception. I think Baker with Canales is the real Baker.The thing that throws me most about the overall Mayfield discussion is that:
1. He has 4000 yards and 28 TDs and 10 INTs with Canales as the OC. This is with the leagues WORST rushing attack and its still better offensive scoring than Canales 24 (top 10 rushing attack) and 25 (19th rushing attack) offenses. So some of that success is on Mayfield's play.
2. Mayfield goes UP with Coen to 4500 yards 41 and 16. He has a healthy line and a top 3 or 4 rushing attack. So some of Mayfield's success is on Coen and good health.
3. Mayfield's lowest production is 2025 with a ROOKIE OC who was fired and a big step back in rushing attack. So some of the struggles have to be on the OC, right? Injury
So, if you are trying to figure out what you have with Mayfield, how in the world do you conclude that he is the last 11 games of 2025?
It has to be somewhere between 2023 Canales and 2024 Coen, not the last 11 games with Grizz when the team is collapsing.
One easy way to highlight that point is just to reverse the cherry picking (or recency bias, whatever you want to call it) and say that based on the first 8 games Mayfield has the Bucs at 6-2 and he is on his way to 4000 yards 28ish TDs and a handful of INTs . . with soon-to-be-fired Grizz as the OC.
That should mean that:
Grizz is more the "flop" (he was fired and not rehired as OC)
Canales the "floor" (he was hired as a HC and play caller); and,
Coen may be the "best performance" (we will see with Robinson).
A 2026 NFL QB who performs up slightly from the "floor" and down slightly from the "best performance" throws for 4000ish yard, 30 TDs and 12-13 INTs is top QB. Seattle wins a SB with Darnold at 4000, 25 TDs and 14 INTs
Awesome thanks for answering.
I would think Baker is sort of "Canales +"
I throw on the "+" because any OC now would see what he does best, which in my view is manage a run-strong offense that spreads the passing game around quickly and with many passes being an extension of the run game. Canales 2023 had a putrid run game. It was just that Cananles was committed to it as part of running a balanced offense
Not sure what "Canales" or Canales +" translates into for QB contract value but a "canales/Canales+" QB won a Super Bowl (admittedly with a defense I dont not expect the Bucs to produce)
Haha, showing your ignorance now, Biggs. Byron Leftwich was a good OC. Twice in four years, Leftwich’s quarterbacks passed for more than 5,000 yards. Under Leftwich, the Buccaneers averaged 28.6 points per game (2019), 30.75 (2020) and 30.05 (2021) before slumping to 18.4 (2022) in Tom Brady’s final season. Even so, the Buccaneers ranked first or second in passing yards each year during Leftwich’s tenure.The OC gave the QB quite a few plays to make, but he didn't.
Wut
You act like Grizzard was Byron Leftwich. If he was, he wouldn’t have a job right now - like Leftwich didn’t have a job for years.
You want to know what Byron Leftwich was doing in 2023 and 2024 before being hired by Colorado? He was being a dad. He got back into coaching when he was ready to get back into coaching and not before then. So no, Grizzard isn't on the same planet as Byron Leftwich when it comes to OC ability and evidence. Grizzard was absolutely horrid. Leftwich was a head coaching candidate for a couple of jobs. You can paint it any stupid way you like, but you are just flat wrong. Grizzard was the biggest problem with the Tampa Bay offense last season.