My argument is that he was the MAIN reason for the collapse
Too stupid to insult at this point.
The collapse is on Bowles and the coaching staff.
That seems obvious to me, especially when compared to Mayfield.
Mayfield does not control special teams, defense, the condition of the O-line or the play calling. Mayfield definitely does not overcome those deficiencies down the stretch (like he arguably did in the beginning) and, to badabing's point, he does have several bad interceptions down the stretch, BUT he was not the "main" reason the Bucs collapsed. That's a bridge too far.
My argument is that he was the MAIN reason for the collapse
Too stupid to insult at this point.
The collapse is on Bowles and the coaching staff.
No shit.
The entire defense flat out quit on him, with multiple players throwing him under the bus after the season finale.
Same shit every year with this coaching staff.
Baker was indeed a major contributor.
Agreed.
My argument is that he was the MAIN reason for the collapse.
Nah, that's on the Head Coach and his Defensive Coordinator.
Major contributor - yes, MAIN reason - no.
The thing that throws me most about the overall Mayfield discussion is that:
1. He has 4000 yards and 28 TDs and 10 INTs with Canales as the OC. This is with the leagues WORST rushing attack and its still better offensive scoring than Canales 24 (top 10 rushing attack) and 25 (19th rushing attack) offenses. So some of that success is on Mayfield's play.
2. Mayfield goes UP with Coen to 4500 yards 41 and 16. He has a healthy line and a top 3 or 4 rushing attack. So some of Mayfield's success is on Coen and good health.
3. Mayfield's lowest production is 2025 with a ROOKIE OC who was fired and a big step back in rushing attack. So some of the struggles have to be on the OC, right? Injury
So, if you are trying to figure out what you have with Mayfield, how in the world do you conclude that he is the last 11 games of 2025?
It has to be somewhere between 2023 Canales and 2024 Coen, not the last 11 games with Grizz when the team is collapsing.
One easy way to highlight that point is just to reverse the cherry picking (or recency bias, whatever you want to call it) and say that based on the first 8 games Mayfield has the Bucs at 6-2 and he is on his way to 4000 yards 28ish TDs and a handful of INTs . . with soon-to-be-fired Grizz as the OC.
That should mean that:
Grizz is more the "flop" (he was fired and not rehired as OC)
Canales the "floor" (he was hired as a HC and play caller); and,
Coen may be the "best performance" (we will see with Robinson).
A 2026 NFL QB who performs up slightly from the "floor" and down slightly from the "best performance" throws for 4000ish yard, 30 TDs and 12-13 INTs is top QB. Seattle wins a SB with Darnold at 4000, 25 TDs and 14 INTs
A QB is almost always a "major contributor" to the outcome of an N FL football game. That is very nature of the sport.
But, have you just considered basic logic?
If Mayfield's second half o the season performance has him as "major contributor" to the failing then was also, by simple extension of logic, a "major contributor" to the success in the beginning. and that is with an OC who was fired and N OT rehired by any team to be their OC
So, its timing? Your critique is really that he was not clutch all the way to the end? He was in the beginning, but not when the team started kicking the ball out the end zone, giving up 3rd and 28 etc?
um . . .okay, sure. fair enough.
@biggs3535 and @badabing
state your claim . . is Mayfield more like 2023, 2024 or the last 11 games of 2025?
Mayfield was clearly hurt and lost velocity. He also made inexcusable bad throws/interceptions in critical moments.
But he also wasn't THAT bad down the stretch. He played below our expectation for sure but in the end, the defense is allowing long scoring drives and not forcing a ton of turnovers to give easy momentum opportunities to a floundering offense.
And when the offense gave the defense a 16 point lead in the 4th, that loss falls on the defense... It's inexcusable to let Cousins and Pitts YET AGAIN pick a defense apart. Yes, Baker's pick was also inexcusable but the defense folded YET AGAIN like a wet paper bag.
So if we assign blame to the collapse I'd go
75% coaching & special teams
15% Baker
10% players not making plays
Special teams was giving the defense a short field to work with. Harder to force turnovers if a team is in field goal range fairly quickly.
Bowles should have fired and promoted Tandy to ST coach. What did he have to lose if Tandy had to learn on the job? Better than what was put out there and yielding touchbacks for automatic starts at the 35 yard line.
Mayfield had no control over ST and defense. On offense it seems Mayfield was out of rhythm but his injury clearly bothered him.
That is false, Biggs, and you know it. That guy was never ever qualified to be an OC and he was absolutely as bad as everyone is saying which is why he's now out of an OC job. We will see how the passing game for the Eagles looks under him. I suspect it will suffer. I was never convinced he was qualified to be much more than a quality control coach. Let's see how the Eagles lookHowever, I will point out that the same OC got inherently worse as the season progressed to the point the offense became both stale and predictable.
The QB not playing as well had a pretty big hand in how the offense looked overall. The OC gave the QB quite a few plays to make, but he didn't.
I'm not really defending the OC. I was fine with moving on from him, but he wasn't as bad as many are saying. He has become Bowles' scapegoat and had to deal with the same OL injuries that people are giving Mayfield excuses for. And again, they won with those OL injuries when Mayfield played well.
And even though Wirfs and Goedeke both were back, that does NOT mean they were both at 100%.
Very few NFL players, if any, play at 100% after a month or so into the season. It's a rough game and these guys are, by and large, pretty tough.
I will stick by my reasoning but you raise a really good argument point.
Fair enough.
What are you even talking about, Bada? No one here is sugar-coating anything. I stated pretty clearly that Baker's career has been a roller coaster and I would rather him prove he's worth the estimated going rate of $53M than just handing it to him right now. Also, stating the OC was absolutely part of the problem on offense is 100% accurate. At the end of the day, it ALL rests on Bowles and this team folded like a cheap suit on him. He lost the locker room and he lost the games but trying to pretend that this offense was ineffective because of how Baker ran it is nonsense. Look at the damned play calling Grizzard was running. It was as bad as any I have ever witnessed at the professional level. Even Brady would have suffered - except Brady wouldn't have ran what Grizzard was calling.I will point out that the same OC got inherently worse as the season progressed to the point the offense became both stale and predictable. And even though Wirfs and Goedeke both were back, that does NOT mean they were both at 100%. I will stick by my reasoning
Correct. Understandable focus on the QB, but he's not the story of the season and certainly not THE story of the late collapse.
An easy example would be the Falcons loss. Mayfield throws a critical interception late on a pass that likely seals the win BUT he is sacked 5 times with both Wirfs and Goedeke playing. Hes sacked 5 times with those two guys on the line because NEITHER is fully healthy and the interior of the line is Michael Jordan and Dan Feeney (and Grizz play calls)
That actual story of the game though is a defense that gives up 160 yards and 3 TDs to Pitts and, of course, a defense that cant stop 3rd and a mile.
And in the game we are intentionally kicking out the back of the end zone because the week prior the Saints had 138 yards on KO returns.
SO THE TEAM IS COLLAPSING AROUND MAYFIELD. hes not winning them on his own like earlier, but the team is falling apart.
You can see the panic set in the next week in Carolina. Same interior line has Mayfield under pressure (2 sacks and scrambles for 50 yards) BUT they are also FORCING the ball to Evans. And the critical INT is Evans turning back in scramble drill rather than continuing forward INTO OPEN SPACE.
Dolphins loss is all about their D line destroying our Oline of Chuck, Jordan and Feeney. Mayfield is sacked 3 times, scrambles for 3 runs (even though he cant really run) and fumbles twice. The Dolphins have something like 8 Tackles for a Loss. Irving runs for 2.1 ypc. Their D line MAULED our O-line, in our backfield all day long.
while there is plenty of blame to go around for that historical collapse, Baker was indeed a major contributor. And that's something that the redboard here just sugar coasts or easily dismisses to the points that Biggs threw cold water on.
Even though Baker had a critical INT that should have led to 3 points and sealed the game for the Bucs in the Atlanta disaster, yes that one goes on the defense
but the 24-20 loss to Saints, 23-20 loss to Carolina, 20-17 loss to Miami; coupled with the defensive wins 16-14 over Carolina and 20-17 over Atlanta; it's hard not to fault the offense there. An offense that got all of their guys back (Evans, McMillian, Irving, Goedeke, Godwin, etc.) but down arguably the worst guy on the like in Ben Brederson and the Baker defenders just quickly say "Well we didnt have Ben Brederson"
We then blame the shit OC which again we all agree was not qualified but where was that blame when they put up 30+ against the Seahawks and 49ers in back to back weeks? Was our QB just playing better?
My argument is that he was the MAIN reason for the collapse. I have high expectations of Baker and he shit the bed.
Bowles should have been fired because he lost the locker room but that is the same locker room that includes Baker.
I think the 2023 Canales version is probably the "real" Baker Mayfield. I think Coen was that good of an OC and I suspect he will probably be that good of a Head Coach. He sees the game very well and runs the offense accordingly. I was never big on Canales, but seeing how bad Grizzard was helped me realize with Canales, it could have been way worse and he was at least effective enough in my book to let Baker play to his strengths. Coen is the exception. I think Baker with Canales is the real Baker.The thing that throws me most about the overall Mayfield discussion is that:
1. He has 4000 yards and 28 TDs and 10 INTs with Canales as the OC. This is with the leagues WORST rushing attack and its still better offensive scoring than Canales 24 (top 10 rushing attack) and 25 (19th rushing attack) offenses. So some of that success is on Mayfield's play.
2. Mayfield goes UP with Coen to 4500 yards 41 and 16. He has a healthy line and a top 3 or 4 rushing attack. So some of Mayfield's success is on Coen and good health.
3. Mayfield's lowest production is 2025 with a ROOKIE OC who was fired and a big step back in rushing attack. So some of the struggles have to be on the OC, right? Injury
So, if you are trying to figure out what you have with Mayfield, how in the world do you conclude that he is the last 11 games of 2025?
It has to be somewhere between 2023 Canales and 2024 Coen, not the last 11 games with Grizz when the team is collapsing.
One easy way to highlight that point is just to reverse the cherry picking (or recency bias, whatever you want to call it) and say that based on the first 8 games Mayfield has the Bucs at 6-2 and he is on his way to 4000 yards 28ish TDs and a handful of INTs . . with soon-to-be-fired Grizz as the OC.
That should mean that:
Grizz is more the "flop" (he was fired and not rehired as OC)
Canales the "floor" (he was hired as a HC and play caller); and,
Coen may be the "best performance" (we will see with Robinson).
A 2026 NFL QB who performs up slightly from the "floor" and down slightly from the "best performance" throws for 4000ish yard, 30 TDs and 12-13 INTs is top QB. Seattle wins a SB with Darnold at 4000, 25 TDs and 14 INTs
So we can all agree 2025 in total was clearly Baker's worst performance as a Buccaneer. We will exclude 2024 altogether since he was a Hall of Famer that year.
Lowest TD/INT ratio of 2.4 as compared to 2.8 back in 2023. 217 Yards per game versus 237 back in 2023.
Now, Let's dissect the Baker performance into halves since he was performing at a MVP level. First 9 games representing first half of season, last 8 games representing second half of season.
- First 9 games, averaged 244 yards per game, 16 TDs, 2 INTs with 8 ratio
- Last 8 games, averaged 188 yards per game, 10 TDs, 9 INTs with a 1.1. ratio
compared to 2023
- First 9 games, averaged 238 yards per game, 14 TDs, 5 INTs, 2.8 ratio
- Last 8 games, averaged 238 yards per game, 14 TDs, 5 INTs, 2.8 ratio
Compared to his time in Cleveland Full years
- 2018 - 14 games, 266 yards per game, 27 TDs, 14 INTs, 1.9 ratio
- 2019 - 16 games, 239 yards per game, 22 TDs, 21 INTs, 1.0 ratio
- 2020 - 15 games, 223 yards per game, 26 TDs, 8 INTs, 3.3 ratio
- 2021 - 14 games, 215 yards per game, 17 TDs, 13 INTs, 1.3 ratio
My god that collapse, last 8 games where Bucs were 2-6, was some of the worst football in Baker's entire career
Disclaimer: I didn't look at the year where he was imitating Jason Pierre Paul on Carolinas scout team defense but you get the jist.
The Bucs may very well do what bad franchises like Miami (Tua) and Cardinals (Murray) do and prematurely extend Baker before the season; but given how poorly he played down the stretch last year, hell i'd like to see it was a fluke before we give him a $200M plus contract.
Offensive line, coaching, and injuries oh my......i get it....but he had the same offensive line and coaching the first 9 games too....
Do you understand what scout team defenses do? They watch film, they gameplan, and then they practice it.....then that plan gets executed in real games. Baker played at that level the first 9 games because no one had anything on Grizzard and how he would call games. Once the gameplan was out there and the adjustments made, Baker wasn't a good enough QB to adjust on his own. A good OC would change things up (see Coen and to some degree Canales). They would shift how they called games. Grizzard was incapable of doing that and Baker Mayfield is NOT Tom Brady so his play diminished significantly PLUS the injuries not only to himself but others definitely had an impact on the offense. Not to mention several of those losses down the stretch were solely the result of the grinning window-licker head coach and his lame ass, predictable defense and when all else fails, blitz. That is why Baker's play diminished and the Bucs lost those games. Period. Make any argument you like, but that's the truth of it.So we can all agree 2025 in total was clearly Baker's worst performance as a Buccaneer. We will exclude 2024 altogether since he was a Hall of Famer that year.
Lowest TD/INT ratio of 2.4 as compared to 2.8 back in 2023. 217 Yards per game versus 237 back in 2023.
Now, Let's dissect the Baker performance into halves since he was performing at a MVP level. First 9 games representing first half of season, last 8 games representing second half of season.
- First 9 games, averaged 244 yards per game, 16 TDs, 2 INTs with 8 ratio
- Last 8 games, averaged 188 yards per game, 10 TDs, 9 INTs with a 1.1. ratio
compared to 2023
- First 9 games, averaged 238 yards per game, 14 TDs, 5 INTs, 2.8 ratio
- Last 8 games, averaged 238 yards per game, 14 TDs, 5 INTs, 2.8 ratio
Compared to his time in Cleveland Full years
- 2018 - 14 games, 266 yards per game, 27 TDs, 14 INTs, 1.9 ratio
- 2019 - 16 games, 239 yards per game, 22 TDs, 21 INTs, 1.0 ratio
- 2020 - 15 games, 223 yards per game, 26 TDs, 8 INTs, 3.3 ratio
- 2021 - 14 games, 215 yards per game, 17 TDs, 13 INTs, 1.3 ratio
My god that collapse, last 8 games where Bucs were 2-6, was some of the worst football in Baker's entire career
Disclaimer: I didn't look at the year where he was imitating Jason Pierre Paul on Carolinas scout team defense but you get the jist.
The Bucs may very well do what bad franchises like Miami (Tua) and Cardinals (Murray) do and prematurely extend Baker before the season; but given how poorly he played down the stretch last year, hell i'd like to see it was a fluke before we give him a $200M plus contract.
Offensive line, coaching, and injuries oh my......i get it....but he had the same offensive line and coaching the first 9 games too....
Why the rush to sign Baker now?
Baker is under contract for the 2026 season and the tag for 2027 is available.
Let Baker play out the 2026 season and earn a huge contract if he plays well.